29 Apr 2020 08:21:25
You Ed002,
Any inside track on the proposals to revamp the qualification rules for the Champions league from 2024 season onwards? It seems like the first foundation is being laid for a European super league, the death bell is starting to toll for the English domestic game as we know it .

{Ed002's Note - There are several counter-proposals to the proposed pan-European breakaway that have been backed by UEFA to try and save their own skin. The first proposal is to rename and change the format of the UEFA Champions League to make it an elite closed-shop pan-European league with a fixed number of teams – and these would be the same teams every year and be based on past winners of the Champions League and European Cup and a few (not specified) more. It would then require the restructuring of the Europa League and the introduction of a lower-tier European competition again (which is happening regardless). Although they have yet to flesh out the detail and there is now a major concern that the impetus for this is not coming from Europe, although one major Football Association has given their support and discussions have also been held with the leading clubs from England (Manchester United, Manchester City, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal). The American backer, Stephen Ross of the Miami Dolphins, has on several occasions requested a meeting with an extant group of sides considering the pan-European breakaway to discuss his proposals. They have no interest in such a discussion but having identified the source of much of the funding (and that raising a concern) will wish to discuss it between themselves again. This has dragged on for three years and nothing has happened - and I doubt it will. Ross with the help of Liverpool owners FSG organised a meeting of a number of clubs in Paris during January 2020 including Arsenal, Bayern Munich, PSG, Atletico, Manchester United, Juventus, Liverpool in order to discuss expanding the pre-season International Champions Cup to a much larger event where clubs would be members of the tournament through a debenture type system but need to commit to playing their first team in all games. Ajax, Chelsea, both Milan sides, Borussia Dortmund, Monaco, Marseille, Real Madrid and Spurs refused invitations to attend. Ross wants UEFA to formally recognise the tournament (there has been a discussion already) which would be a money spinner but will add many more first team games to the annual schedule.

However, UEFA are still also considering a variant proposal that would see some places in the CL fixed (probably to previous winners) and then see it supplemented by Champions and second place sides each season. This complicates matters again as it means the re-introduction of a third competition or the significant restructuring of the EL. The plan being put to clubs is a summer/preseason tournament that will evolve into a parallel league, and of course eventually into a complete breakaway for these clubs. As a first step to all of this, UEFA have negotiated minor changes that will see the four entrants from England, Germany, Spain and Italy enter the existing Champions’ League group stages without any qualification beyond their National League position (so no entry to qualifying rounds). This has been agreed by the European Club Association but UEFA did not want to discuss it with the separate group of “elite” sides discussing the Pan European League (and that “elite” group includes three English sides) as they are aware they will get no more than a shrug and no long-term support - and that is where we are now.

The primary UEFA plans, which would come into force in 2024, state that the 32-team Champions League for the 2024/25 season would be chosen based on UEFAs domestic club rankings from the period between the 2020/21 and 2023/24 seasons, effectively shutting out clubs who are not doing well prior to 2024. What it does is make an early start for the Elite to move on (pre 2024) very unlikely. Timing wise, two very prominent clubs wanted it to happen as soon as possible (2021 was the most recently proposed date) and they have the support of a third club - but most are looking at 2023 to 2025 being a good option. A few clubs are looking at 2025 to 2028 and I suspect that could end up as the reality.

Right now, of the 21 clubs involved in the discussions, two have said they will not be in any breakaway league and three have said they may not compete. That will likely change by the time anything eventually happens and talks will continue. The other major counter proposal is a Chinese proposal from the Dalian Wanda Group proposes to open up the lucrative Chinese and Far Eastern media markets by extending the league to include Chinese and South American clubs. This has yet to be discussed by the "elite" sides as a group although the proposals have been presented to a number of them already on an individual basis. The proposals are very broad-based and lack detail - their selling point is significant additional income for the "elite". The general feeling from informal discussions over cocktails is that the "elite" would not want it on a league basis but could be open to including other sides in a some sort of expanded World Club – and that is where FIFA would come in.

If the proposal for a breakaway goes ahead, there is every likelihood that the big money from television, sponsorship etc. would go with a breakaway league. It would completely rupture the operations of UEFA and I would expect it would require national associations like the FA to restructure their leagues. Nobody wants this but it is the eventual consequence I would expect. Initially it could be that there is a single 16 team league with 2 or 3 EPL teams making the initial plunge. If I had to speculate, I would think (1) you might eventually see something like five or six EPL teams leave for two-tier pan European league - but it won't be based on the UEFA rankings; (2) the Premier League would be disbanded as an organisation; (3) the FA would restructure in to two 20 team divisions with lower leagues regionalised as they were many years ago; (4) FIFA would ban all players from the breakaway teams from International football - perhaps rescinding that position to stop FIFA breaking up as well - they don't want further issues but the troubles are not going to go away. I could also see many teams lose their professional status. I would think we are probably 10 years away from any significant move at this time.

I hold a reasonably strong view in terms of the need to restructure football in Europe in any case. For me an eventual a breakaway pan-European league would force the restructuring of many of the national leagues, possibly resulting in a British league with perhaps only a couple of professional tiers and then regionalised amateur leagues below that. Financially I do not see that so many pro sides can be sustained within the sport which, like it or not, will see more and more money going in to the highest levels of the game. Governments will ensure that grassroots sport get funding but everything in the middle (Southern, Northern, Conference, Division 2, Scottish Divisions 1-3, League of Wales will not get the funding needed to continue on any sort of professional basis. For me, clubs should already recognise this and put their efforts in to getting there finances in order to see if they can make it to a British professional league that will need to flourish without perhaps six sides that have eventually gone down the pan-European route - and have gone for good (it would be two or perhaps three initially). Clubs like Accrington Stanley will need to carry on as amateurs or face extinction (yet again). Recently Hartlepool has been struggling - again it needs to adapt. The mighty Third Lanark have started their long journey back to the top - it can be done.

The game has changed significantly and will continue to do so whether the Liverpool supporters like it or not. Football at the highest level is big business and attracts the sponsorship it does because the sponsors wish to tap in to the disposable income of the fans and ride the back of the advertising that flows naturally from the success some clubs achieve. Long gone are the days of the cloth-capped, hobnailed-booted, chimney sweep making his way, rattle in hand, to cheer on his team at Anfield on a Saturday afternoon. I have explained that there will be changes, probably within the next 10 to 12 years, which will force the restructuring of all of the leagues in Europe and likely do away with the likes of UEFA. You will have the opportunity to see the likes of Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Juventus and the other major European sides play in week-on-week regular competition at The Emirates, St James Park, Stamford Bridge or wherever. Fans of the sides who take the plunge will have the opportunity to visit cities such as Milan, Barcelona, Munich, etc. every couple of weeks to watch their team play. If you want to don your cloth cap, have a pint of wallop with your chums before going off to the local match through the grim, wet and cobbled streets of the Northwest of England where there is smog, dead & dying pit ponies laying on the street and only chips and fried curry to eat., perhaps one of the sides from the suburbs will have survived so you can go and watch them?

It was thought that a possible option might have resulted from a potential landmark decision that UEFA were to make in June or July 2017 - and that could facilitate the ownership of lower-tier sides by the more senior sides and then work as a feeder club. However – the need to make that decision was avoided.}

1.) 29 Apr 2020
29 Apr 2020 11:41:48
Can you just go through that again please?

2.) 29 Apr 2020
29 Apr 2020 19:36:14
Fantastic insight Ed, thanks. I’ve read this site for a few years and never posted, seems the right time to now. I’m relatively young at 39, so I’ve missed out on all the beat years as a blue, I only remember losing the 89 final and winning the 95 fa cup, along with the near misses of relegation. I’ve become somewhat disallusioned with football over the past couple of years. I wasn’t a fan of bringing VAR in, and I’ve seen nothing to change my mind. I much preferred human error, something to talk about after the game and a difference of opinion, rather than how many millimetres someone was offside. I’m of the opinion it’s ruining the game (although I can see why it was brought in) , slowing it down and it seems like were soon going to be watching a non contact sport. Money makes the world go around, but unfortunately it’s another thing ruining the game. Times change as with everything in life. Sadly the game, in my opinion is being ruined by money and greed. It’s a huge lucrative business and it’s ruining a lot of people’s enjoyment. The last couple of seasons I have started paying less and less attention to premier league football (I am a blue but also a fan (or was) of the game in general, and would watch any game available) . I have taken to watching lower league football a lot more, aswell as Everton. Whether it be Tranmere or the lads Sunday league, I have found it’s more interesting to me (no VAR, less money, etc) . With the proposals outlined by Ed, and what’s inevitably going to happen in the game, I’m starting to fall out of love with it and I’m sure, but hope I’m wrong thy a lot of others will to. The excitement isn’t going to be the same for me. Sadly the game that I knew has changed beyond recognition for me. Bit of a long winded post for a first time I know, the general gist of it tho is that the life is being sucked out of it for me and will be even more so with the proposals as outlined by Ed. Anyway, I hope you’re all safe and well with what’s going on right now and I apologise for the long post, and thanks for the insight Ed, fantastic as always.

{Ed002's Note - It is a natural progression I am afraid.}

3.) 29 Apr 2020
29 Apr 2020 20:29:28
So it seems, unfortunately. Thanks.

4.) 29 Apr 2020
29 Apr 2020 22:34:15
Wow what a detailed response, thanks for the info ed002, I must say I would be gutted to see the Premier League dispanded, but also would probably subscribe to watch this new super league if it were created. it would be a shame not to see all the best players at the world cup as well, but as you say, most if not all players would go for the money on offer.

{Ed002's Note - You are welcome. It is not anticipated for a few years but something could happen from 2024.}

5.) 30 Apr 2020
30 Apr 2020 11:50:51
Well Everton would not be included in this super League considering our lack of European success in recent times. Where would that leave us as a club? Assumption is we would wind up eventually then as TV would only be interested in the top competition. Football would essentially become the top 3/ 4 teams from the top euro leagues forming the super League meaning us Everton fans best start thinking of a new team to support really as even if there is a competition left, it would be one of little interest to anyone with no chance of being included in the super League as we are not a big enough club and the club's initially included will want it closed off so all the money is always with them.

6.) 30 Apr 2020
30 Apr 2020 12:54:51
So what's the point in building the new stadium.

7.) 30 Apr 2020
30 Apr 2020 15:56:38
I personally would not be interested in watching a European super league if my team was not in it - I’d imagine a lot of fans from all clubs would agree.

I realise it’s Potentially a big money spinner but a lot of the money comes from fans supporting the teams involved, buying tickets, merchandise, paying for subscriptions to watch the matches. If a fan has not got an interest in it as their team is not involved I’m not sure they’ll be keen to spend their hard earned on following it.

It’s a sad state of affairs when money above all is the motivating factor and the fans are forgotten about.

For instance The joy of the FA cup is in the giant killings and watching the so called top teams having to play at a pitch worse than their car park.

Football in its current state does need to change but for the benefit of the majority - these plans seem only aimed at the so called elite teams.

Will be interesting to see what teams don’t survive the current predicament and who has to sell to survive.

The football landscape in the coming year will be very different to previous, hopefully some clubs will use the experience to improve their practice in relation to finances and start to live with in their means. Not sure if fans either will be spending as much as previous with the likely hardship the current predicament has gotten a lot of people in making them a bit more conscious of what they spend money on - the idiotic footballers flouting the lockdown rules are not making a good impression and wouldn’t be encouraging me to spend my cash to pay their wages.

{Ed002's Note - The "elite teams" (there are 21 of them at present) would generally (with the exception of two) it the likes of UEFA and FIFA would stop try and increase their hold over competitions. The "breakaway" is the plan of these "elite" sides to take back control. All of the other plans are from UEFA (or those trying to partner with UEFA) to profit themselves.}

8.) 30 Apr 2020
30 Apr 2020 20:28:22
Let them have their super league, they will soon be brassed off with only one of those teams lifting the league.

All good and well dominating your own leagues, season on season, be a different kettle of fish facing the elite, week in week out.

If they break away, then the leagues without them will become more competative, we might even see the f a cup back to as it once was.

I personally think after a few seasons, they would miss us more than we would miss them.

{Ed002's Note - The leagues would need to be restructed and there will be fewer professional sides.}

9.) 30 Apr 2020
30 Apr 2020 21:10:54
If you are losing 6 or 8 max from the Premier league, those slots could be filled, you look at the likes of Leeds, West Brom, Sheffield Weds, some more out their past big clubs that could surely regenerate the premier league.

With the elite in a European league, this could revamp the Premier league and make it more competitive.

I do not think it would be a huge loss, the Premier league as you say will be restructured and the leagues below them.

{Ed002's Note - You are missing the point that the money would be a lot less and the clubs would be of less interest to broadcasters.}

10.) 30 Apr 2020
30 Apr 2020 23:10:50
I doubt the broadcasters being less interested in showing Premier league games, we get two games a week live from the lower divisions already, the money would be less, that should drive transfer fees and wages down.

There is only so many players, the elite clubs can sign, leaving plenty to go around the other major leagues.

It might actually get back to a spectator sport, where fans once again become a main source of income for clubs.

{Ed002's Note - Right, the 1950s.}

11.) 01 May 2020
01 May 2020 06:51:23
What are evertons chances of being asked to join the european break away league Ed? If I understand rightly, would there be 2 divisions of Euro league? Surely EFC would be asked to join the second division?

{Ed002's Note - Sorry but no. Currently their are 21 sides (the "elite" sides so to speak) involved in the the discussions Danny of which one has already said they will not be involved and four remain undecided. The initial breakaway will come from this set of clubs and eventually they expect to be a second tier of perhaps 16 in each. Everton are currently ranked 87th in Europe so it is most unlikely even if the rankings were to come in to play.}

12.) 01 May 2020
01 May 2020 13:30:28
Not going to happen there is no way the premier league brand would be broken up just to serve a European league it’s just to big it may suit fifa as other leagues don’t generate the money the prem does.

{Ed002's Note - It is nothing to do with FIFA.}

13.) 01 May 2020
01 May 2020 13:35:19
The premier league is the brand it is because of the excitement it brings not just from the 4 or 5 teams at top it’s everything from relegation to seeing new clubs come up like Blackpool and Ipswich over the years we loving watching it because it does throw up everything, in other leagues they only want to watch games between the big clubs.

{Ed002's Note - Clearly you don't have any grasp of the game at all.}

14.) 01 May 2020
01 May 2020 16:19:57
agree with ed 002 hate saying it we are not good enough to get an invite an on the record where not even consistent enough in the prem for top four or even the europe league places last trophy 1995 says it all if am honest.

15.) 01 May 2020
01 May 2020 17:02:32
Well if it happens the way ed says it will, they have lost me as a football supporter I won't be going or watching any football again think I will be done with it all, the life has already been sucked out.

{Ed002's Note - You have a few years to go before it happens unless UEFA do something particularly stupid.}

16.) 01 May 2020
01 May 2020 17:18:30
Well a humble evertonian can only hope the club uses the next 4 years as an opportunity to climb from 87th place in the rankings and hopefully be asked to attend the party, things are, to quote Mr Bowie ch. ch. ch. changing, time will tell if it's for the better or not, but I have to admit as an everton fan I am full of anxiety over the future, it's clear we are not an elite club, and time is running out for us to become one.

17.) 01 May 2020
01 May 2020 19:12:24
I get the feeling your not very often wrong ed. But on this one I hope you are very wrong but I bought it.

18.) 02 May 2020
02 May 2020 05:10:39
I'm living in Thailand now. I'm only mentioning that as the 6-7 hour time difference between the UK and Thailand has affected my viewing patterns

I still watch all the Everton games. Everton is my team and I would want to watch them whatever league they are in, whether it be Premier, the Championship or even lower
Where my viewing has changed though is when I was in the UK I would watch any Premier game that was on the box but now, when it is being shown late evening or even early morning if it is a UK night match most times (even a top of the table clash) I can't be bothered to stay up. I think any cross time zone league would struggle for the same reason. Is there any other sport that has shown that such an arrangement works? How many supporters say they support their team but are not as bothered about their national side playing in the world cup or similar international tournaments

I'm also not interested in watching different leagues in different countries. I don't watch Barcelona even though Messi plays for them. I don't watch Juventus just to see Ronaldo. I want to watch Everton and the teams they play

I have 3 grown up sons in the UK - all of them deserters who don't support Everton. If I was a broadcaster the thing that would worry me is that they are all less interested in football than I am. It's a very, very small sample but I believe interest in football is on the wane. The gap between players and normal people is widening

I think the TV channels and the top sides can see this and so they are looking to develop new viewers but the new viewers they want are in the developing markets such as China, the US, India, Asia Pacific etc. Personally, I believe the new viewers they will attract will not be as big as they think due to time differences and will not compensate for the the viewers they will lose such as myself, other Evertonians, Newcastle, Wolves, Napoli, Schalke, other team supporters who want to support their team, not some team 100's. 1000's of miles away with no 'connection' to them.

{Ed025's Note - i agree with all of that bw, i too have 2 sons who are deserters so i what you mean and i would not watch the breakaway league either mate if everton were not involved..

19.) 02 May 2020
02 May 2020 09:46:26
Good valid points there BW.

20.) 02 May 2020
02 May 2020 18:09:59
There's one other point I'd like to make. I think the days of mega money TV deals are beginning to come to an end. In Thailand I have an Android TV box, readily available from Amazon or any other internet selling site and here in Thailand, it is not illegal to stream live sporting events so I can get SKY, BT, BEIN Sports, NBCSN and a myriad of foreign sites showing the matches live without me paying any fees except standard internet access. I could also get these on any Android phone with the right APP. It's the same throughout Asia and the TV companies have tried but failed to stop this growing trend.

It's not legal to do this in the UK but it is done. I learnt how to do it whilst in the UK. There's been attempts to stop people doing it in the UK but it's being done more and more and, as I said it's common place in Thailand and all through Asia

TV companies are going to see revenues dropping because of this and the corona virus will compound it. Will pub landlords continue to pay £100's, £1000's to show football if they are half full due to social distancing. Will fans continue to pay high subscriptions that only widen the gap between themselves and the clubs/ players or will they move more and more onto streaming sites, legally or illegally

There will still be advertising revenues but will they be able to sustain their fees

I'd be very surprised if the revenue from games can be maintained long term

Also, has anyone thought about the travelling fans who go to away matches? How are they going to afford the increased costs or find the additional time away from family/ work, never mind the new restrictions to travel caused by Covid 19.

21.) 02 May 2020
02 May 2020 19:09:18
In regards to your queries about fans travelling BW24, I think in terms the elite clubs in England Man united, Liverpool (grits teeth) , Arsenal, Spurs etc, I think they have a large majority of fans who travel from overseas just to attend their home games, so short haul flights to Spain, Germany, Italy and France etc will not be a huge problem, all jokes aside about Liverpool, but their Norwegian contingent pay absolute fortunes for black market tickets, they earn very good money over there, and England is far cheaper for Alcohol, Food and accommodation etc, the harsh fact is that football as a spectator sport is becoming unaffordable to the English working class, the clubs want out of town/ foreign fans because they spend more money.

22.) 03 May 2020
03 May 2020 01:15:36
BlueDanny -You are right about fans from abroad travelling to home games and I'm totally unclear on the numbers but that is totally different to travelling to away games. The location of home games are the same every match so airlines can put extra flights into their scheduling and fans can also regularise their accomodation, For away games it is a different city every week. Flights won't be as plentiful so more expensive, accommodation will have to be arranged, possibly at a premium. Sure, a good travel agent can do most of this for you but how many of our away support drive or coach to matches, don't stay overnight and lose a day of their weekend, not all weekend.

I believe regular away supporters will decrease without any increase in fans going to home games from abroad - unless of course the new leagues are unsuccessful and there are therefore more seats available but, if they are unsuccessful, why would they want to go?

One thing we do agree upon is that the game is becoming unaffordable to the English working class. Long term that might be it's death-knell.