Everton Banter Archive August 23 2011

23 Aug 2011 19:47:31
I'm thinkin, now City are signin Nasri, we should be tryin for Johnson on loan because he's not gonna get much game time with the amount of midfielders they have and we need someone of his quality bombin it down the wings {Ed025's Note - mancini said he was a vital member of his squad..

I think swp would be good for us and they are not talking about big money for him either. It may be a good idea especially if we can offload yak and yobo {Ed025's Note - the same wage problems..

But we would be saving on yak and yobos big wages if we could offload them {Ed025's Note - fair point pal..

As if johnson would come to us, we cant attract players like that {Ed025's Note - i agree..

23 Aug 2011 18:57:36
If big offers came in for either Arteta or Cahill I'd definitely sell. They're on massive wages, been out of form for 2 years and are now both injury prone. Add Cahill's jaunts to the middle of nowhere to play no mark international sides. {Ed025's Note - if big offers come in for any player...they will be considered..

23 Aug 2011 18:42:21
I think the QPR game has just confirmed the ever pressing need for Moyes to decide what to do with the Yak.
Lets take a look at the strikers we have;
Saha - Has an eye for goal, but on saturday his short passing was woeful, and lets face it, hes not injury free is he?
Anichebe - Big, strong, decent bit of pace, can hold the ball up well when he wants, but he's not going to use that on the RW, and add that to the fact that he doesnt ever seem to shoot.
Beckford - Quick, and can finish, but at times, far too greedy for my liking, and still looks a little lightweight.
You see the conundrum, if we could blend the three of them into one, im sure you'll all agree we'd have a goal machine on our hands.
Now in no way am i saying that the answer is the yak, but he's strong, has an eye for a goal and can finish, but he does lack the raw pace that is needed to beat defenders now.
Personally, id love to see the yak used in a 4-4-2 formation, as you all probably would. the only issue is who would you pick for his strike partner, naturally, the choice is to pick someone quick, so admittedly, id assume becks to be his partner.
there is the option, of having a tall striker, to nod the ball down to the yak, not to utilise pace, but to utilise strength...(was it meireles who tried to rugby tackle him last season? and he bounced off him?) so in this case, perhaps vellios? this kid doesnt look slow, but has the height to allow him to beat defenders in the air.

It does leave much to the imagination, because when you think about it, its one that can be solved with any combination, the only problem is, with 1year left on his deal, do we use him, or do we ship him out now? {Ed025's Note - if the yak is our best bet up front...then god help us!..

Get Vellios on FFS.

We shall soon have the true measure of The Yak [I don't mean his girth] Is he gonna be happy sitting in our reserves picking up wedge or is he A] gonna take a wage cut in order to get first team football elsewhere or B] Work hard, buckle down and earn a place in our first team?
Basically, what I am saying is: Has he now become Van De Meyde in disguise? {Ed025's Note - he will be happy to play reserve team football , on £50,000 per week..

He's never going to be the goalscorer he once was but Yakubu would benefit the team in other areas. When Saha's out we need someone who can hold the ball up and bring our midfield into the game, especially at home. He's got strength, intelligence and vision in abundance and would help us break down opposition teams. At the very least it'd stop Moyes from throwing Fellaini upfront and pumping the ball up to him. {Ed025's Note - how can being overweight..lazy..and not giving a toss, be beneficial?..

In addition he's toned up and lost weight in the past year or so. Unless my eyes deceive me. It's one of the reasons I'm fed up of our fans calling him fat.
He's not going to be what he was, but he still has great vision, fantastic strength and can also hold the ball up better than our other strikers. If Moyes insists on a 4-4-1-1 with Cahill, he needs to be our frontman. Otherwise surely he'd be a good partner for Becks in a 4-4-2/4-4-1-1? {Ed025's Note - its all about opinions...i think mine is clear..

The issue with Beckford is his attitude. At the start of the summer I heard someone ask Sharpy on City what he thought of him, and how many goals he would get.
Sharpy didnt hold any punches he basically said that his touch was awful, and what he should be doing is come into training two weeks early then anyone else for the new season and work on his touch and finishing..... What he said at the end tho was that knowing him he thinks he has already made it...The blue Don {Ed025's Note - becks is a work in progress....he will come good..

I agree we should be playing the Yak with someone with pace up front. He is the best striker in the club.. As becks or Vic and tell them to do all the ground work for him...Look at Kev Phillips he's scored 5 goals already this season. He aint gonna run all over the place. Sometimes Moyes prefers everyone to graft 100% with little substance. I would alternate the Yak and Saha both are natural scorers with Becks. I would sacrafice him to do all the harrying and chasing lost balls allowing the Yak to sit in the box.... Feed the Yak......Give a run of 5 games.... {Ed025's Note - 1 game would be too many..

23 Aug 2011 14:08:42
First good news of the summer, our team bus has passed its MOT

Thats made my day, yippee

Whats your source? great news things are looking up {Ed025's Note - its a good job we can laugh at ourselves....else we would cry..

23 Aug 2011 13:17:23
Can people PLEASE stop talking about Cahill forcing us to play a lone striker in a 4-5-1 formation.

generally, when Cahill plays, he plays AS A
STRIKER with beckford, Saha, etc alongside - it's a 4-4-2 formation, and gets a good return of goals in this position.

Just because Cahill signed as a midfielder doesn't mean he alsways plays as a midfielder.

I have to disagree mate, when cahill plays with beckford or saha up front he plays behind them and joins in midfield, leaving saha/beckford isolated

Cahill can't pass or isn't creative therefore isn't a CM. Cahill doesn't have pace and doesn't make smart runs behind the defence therefore he isn't a ST. I've seen us play Cahill as a ST and he was useless, CF is his only position, and you hardly even realise he's there...

GP

23 Aug 2011 12:49:03
Cant see fellani extending his contract with all this s**te going on We should cash in on him now before were left with a pienar situation Could get 20 milion for felli, half to the bank and half to put into the transfer kitty

The trouble is mate - are the bank going to let us have any of the money from sales, seeing as like the rest of us they have completey lost faith in Bill's ability to run this club. {Ed025's Note - your right..

23 Aug 2011 08:50:45
Gunna ask a few questions maybe Ed or you guys could answer.

1) Are we building a new ground to increase capacity or due to Goodison being out dated? (I remember when kirkby was a possibility the leader of Knowsley council Mr Round saying Goodison would not be issued with a health and safety certificate after 2013-14 season for premier league games.

If this is the case surly it would be cheaper to redevelop.

2) How much would it cost to buy the club?

3) How much do you think we need to invest in players just to pad out the squad and how much would that add to the wage bill?

I think maybe £50m to buy the club. £45m to clear the debts. £20m to redevelop Goodison and maybe £30m adding 4-5 quality players. Adding £100k a week (£5m a year to the wage bill) my calculations show it would take £145m investment then an additional £5m a year to buy a club lossing £5m a year. Realistically we need a fan to buy us. Until this can be found we need to back the owner and more importantly the manager. If he goes things could get a lot worse.

Leeds have proved how bad things can get. Even with debts gone and 30k + fans a week they can't get back in the prem.

In Moyes we trust.

Here's a thought.
The players are supposed to be valued at about 180m.
Lets imagine Kenwright put the club up for sale at 50m.
What's to stop a secret Liverpool fan from buying it for that price - then seling all the players for 180m, clearing the 45m debt, taking 85m to his bank account and clearing off.
Oh he could also sell the grounds plastic seats and bits of turf at 10 pounds each to old Evertonians wanting something to remember their club by.
Selling the club for less than its proper value just invites sharks to come in and make a profit for themselves.
There's plenty of people in the world who would like to add 85m to their bank account.

It has been reported several times mate that Kenwright wants around £110 mil for the club to be bought outright. If this is true then there is no surprise we can sell the club. We are approximately £40 mil in debt, and in need of either a new stadium or serious redelevopement of goodison, so unless Kenwright and the other greedy muppets on the board drop the asking price then we are f****d

Some People just dont understand business or football.

What has the players Value got to do with anything?

You missed a trick with Blackburn who were sold for £24m months before they sold Jones for £20m think Samba on his own would more than cover the difference.

Why Didnt you buy Liverpool for £180m? Surely you could of asset stripped them? and walked away with the money?

Or QPR last week? West Ham?

Infact you could be a Billionare by now

How much do you think the clubs worth? My simple point was who (other than a fan) would invest £200m in our club?
City board are building a village outside there

Well, actually, chumley -
there are various ways to value a business: future profits, net balance sheet, etc etc but you still haven't explained to us numpties why someone couldn't buy the club for 50m and then sell all of the players for 180m (that's what they've been valued at) - so I'm all ears....

(obviously the value of debt on the balance sheet comes into play - which may well have been a factor in the sales of the clubs you mention - but everton debt is -45m and players = +180, (plus you've then got goodison and finch farm as other assets) - so if Kenwright did offer it for 50m, there would be a quite a large queue of bloodsniffing sharks, I imagine.)

The business would have to be valued propery for sale - otherwise you could get unscrupulous people coming in and buying for the wrong reason - just to asset strip and enrich themselves. If they've paid the correct value - or near to it - you know they've not bought it just for that reason.

Well as proved across the park there is no way of telling what anyones intention is when purchasing a football club. However anyone with £100m plus cash (to clear debts and buy the club) will have a fairly publically accessable financal history. Which can give you a gage as to how they are going to act.

The players have actually been valued at £180m? Hmm by whom? Where can i find this scientific research? Truth is like football clubs themselves, houses, cars even dogs an enterty's true value is only what people are preparred to pay for it so for example if you were to take Yakubu. Valued at £2m if no one is prepared to by him then you still have to pay the remaining £2m on his contract. Therefore instead of being a £2m asset he is a £2m liability. However,

Lets take your £180m valuation as a true reflection of the value of the individual parts. As soon as you started a fire sale the amount people were willing to pay for each player would drop dramatically. This taken into account with the players that you would have to pay the club would make asset stripping for anythingmore than £100m very difficult. Then there are the other contracts you would have to honour or repay Ie sponsorship deals etc etc.

Goodison park would be worth very little as it would cost a lot to knock down and make the land good for development in an undesirable part of the city with very little demand for land and having worked for the council there will be clauses in the deal that allowed Everton to buy the land at finch farm so cheaply preventing the sale of the land for profit for a very long time.

The truth is a business is very rarely valued at the sum of its individual parts (like bulk buying) and is only worth what someone is willing to pay. If no one is willing to pay the £110m being asked for a loss making company the only way to sell it is to cut the price.

To make a profit you would have to invest heavily and start making a profit. then make money on the re-sale.

Am i wrong? {Ed025's Note - sorry..fell asleep half way through..

Ed025 nice responce If i didnt know better i would say that its very valid points that you have no arguement against but dont like so resort to childish tactics. Time we take in the implications of whats happening

The longer Kenwright holds out for money noone is prepared to pay the more debt the club gets into. This inturn lowers the value further etc etc.

Here is the grim reality of it. If we dont sell the club/players we will be more in debt this time next season and still unable to buy players.

If Moyes has any ambition he will leave. We will not get another manager capable of the signing on the budget (currently £0) and more players like Felani will be in the final year of there contract and will either see them out of leave cheap.

Its a downward spiral ending in the Championship or worse Leeds fans claimed "it can never happen to us" jesus it nearly happen to them across the park turning over over £200m a year {Ed025's Note - i know your right mate,( sorry about the offhanded response,) i have been saying that for ages, we are in financial limbo, and unless we get a buyer, and soon, it will only get worse...the problem is, kenwright wants an investor....not a buyer, because he enjoys the chairmanship, and all the prestige that goes with it..

The 180m valuation is from the transcript of Kenwright's meeting with Blue Union.
Bill Kenwright said:
... "what do you think our squad is valued at for insurance purposes? It’s about £180m but the banks won’t take that as security … "
You obviously hadn't bothered to read that even though it was all about your specialist subject - you just decided to write down a load of stuff off the top of your head.

It's not difficult to see how the 180 could easily be reached. My rough guesses - Baines 20, Fellaini 20, Arteta 12. Jags 16, Distin 5, Howard 5, Nev 3, Cahill 7, Beckford 4, Anichebe 3, Yak 2, billy 5, coleman 5, rodwell 10, heitinger 5, hibbo 3, barkely 12+?, mucha ? 2 yobo 2 plus fringe reserve players who have values at 1-2 mill plus some promising youngsters who also have potential values - 180 could easily be correct.

Im so glad you refered back to the transcript to prove my point. Kenwright values them at £180m. Hardly a fair reflection now is it? Do you really wonder why the banks wont accept this?

Prime example is Jags. Now he is only worth £16m if someone is prepared to pay it. No one is

Lets look at the other Values you put on players

Yak - £2m noone will buy him so his wages are a liabilty rather than him being an asset.

Nev - £3m. 34 years old - We recieved a £0.5m offer when he was 33.

Heitinger, Billy Yobo cant sell so again liabilties rather than assets.

Grow up and stop believing everything Kenwright tells you. He Values them at £180m maybe even Evertonians value them at £180m however it is far from a realistic saleable value Which is why the bank wont accept it as security against a loan.

So kenwright is deliberately overvaluing players for the purpose of insurance is he?
Making his insurance premiums bigger even though the insurance value does not help him raise money from the bank.
Err - why?

If you're so great at business, raise the money yourself and buy the club.
All hat n no cattle.

Insurance premiums are 90% directly related to a players Wage How many times in the last 20 years have a premier league club claimed a transfer value of a player? 2 it doesnt make a blind bit of difference.

As you seem to need to be told things time and time again. Lets use Yak as an example.

Yak is insured (dont know how much for) Lets guess at £2m. But he is not worth 2m cant be sold so his wages are a liabilty.

Are you saying you simply wouldnt insure the player?

23 Aug 2011 01:02:43
I will lose all faith In Moyes if he doesn't sign rodellega and hoillet next summer as they Re both out of contract

23 Aug 2011 00:33:03
Everton captains
Not necessarily the most famous or greatest but who do you have fond memories of, thought underrated or unjustly forgotten. I always liked Don Hutch and thought it was bad form for him to be shown the door, he was the captain and although we were inconsistent I remember a quote from the time, "...when he played, then Everton played.

Big Dunc. Howard Kendall's final masterstroke.

Dave Watson. Over 400 appearances for us but he's often forgotten because of the rubbish he had to play with for most of that period. Was a fantastic captain.

Phil Neville

Steve Watson, thought he was great for us in a time we were battling down the bottom, don't know why he was sold.
Under rated, a player who is still at the club, Leon Osman, fantastic player and great on the ball, can make things happen with both feet and gives 110% every game.