Everton Banter Archive December 17 2013

17 Dec 2013 18:56:28
G'day Ed002 & 007 no disrespect to you as I think you all do a fantastic job, but I'm just wandering what happened to my old mate ed025?

{Ed007's Note - He is moving house Syd and will be back once his internet etc is sorted at his new home.}

Thanks mate, keep up the good work.

SydneyBlue

{Ed007's Note - Cheers :-)

17 Dec 2013 19:02:08
clattenburg back at goodison for southampton game on 29th, o no

17 Dec 2013 14:49:24
I know Moyes has gone now & that we've got ourselves a superb young manager in every respect as his replacement. But there's something that I'd like to ask my fellow Evertonians for their views on.
Until he betrayed us I was a big Moyes fan, I was gutted when he left, especially when it was to that lot! However, after just half a season when we're playing better football, with more belief & a more positive attitude I'm beginning to question whether Moyes was as good a manager as I, & many other people, thought.
I think his great talent was spotting players - with a few exceptions he got us some cracking players. I am beginning to think though that as a "man manager" & tactician he is a bit lacking. Look at how so many of our players have blossomed under Robbie - the team spirit is awesome. Then look over at OT & listen to how the fans, & increasingly, according to reports, some of the players, are moaning & whingeing.
Maybe Moyes has taken "a step too far"! It wouldn't surprise me to see him working as a chief scout for some club in the future!
Just my opinion, (I think.)?

IR(&K)IT

''I'm beginning to question whether Moyes was as good a manager as I, & many other people, thought''

If only you listened to me Tezza, you would have realised that he isnt, a lot sooner mate. (As would all of the people who abused me for pointing this out time)

It isn't easy being right all of the time, yet somehow I always am. You really are a lucky bunch to have me on this site.

Mike - The Oracle of Everton Banter

I'd agree with you Tezza in relation to him being adept spotting players and bringing them in at bargain prices more often than not. I also think he was a great motivator, for the most part, and he could certainly organise a team. But I think that's all he has going for him. He was most certainly not a genius as some referred to him as being.

Tactically, he wasn't the greatest, and although we did play some very eye catching stuff at times it was mostly kick and rush hoofball, blood and thunder kind of stuff.

Roberto, on the other hand, has shown in his brief time he's been with us that he has more tactical acumen than the Presbyterian will ever have. His positivity will also no doubt help the players overcome the negative mindset moyes instilled in them for so long, as was evident in the recent Man U game.

We no longer go out and try to keep it tight and try to pinch one then hold on for dear life, defending too deep. We play to win at all times, which is so refreshing after 11 years of negativity. Sometimes it was warranted, particularly in the early years but in the end I thought he was holding us back, rather than the other way around as evidenced by the start we've made with the same core group of players playing with the shackles off.

He was a good manager, for the first 6 or 7 years but was found wanting when it really mattered, and whilst I appreciate the job he did I'm glad we've finally parted company. It was long overdue for me.

Dex

What's your view on Martinez Mike? Plus, have you got the lottery numbers for this weekend?

BitterBlue

17 Dec 2013 17:09:31
Mike we are blessed mate

Degsybluenose

Martinez was my first choice to replace the frog eyed one. His style of football and the way he wants the game to be played is to be admired. It is the same reason why I'm a fan of Brendan Rodgers. 2 young, attack minded managers who play football the correct way.

Well here I am to put the cat amongst the pigeons again.
Moyes signed: Howard, Coleman, Distin, Jagielka, Baines, Pienaar, Mirrallas, Fellaini, Lescott, Arteta, Oviedo, and one or two others. He blooded Barkley and Rooney, got the best out of Osman and even some without too much skill eg Straquil. however you spell it.
Whilst I am loving everything about the way we are playing under RM, it is apparent to me that the main difference between DM's team and RM's team are two loan signings in the form of Lukaku and Barry. I would say Lukaku has made most impact with his goal tally and ability to create space for others. I agree that RM tries to get us playing from the back. A few weeks ago I read a post on here about how we played tip tap football now and it was not working (after a couple of nil nil draws). Just shows how fickle we all are. DM has been disrespectful and I will be pleased if he falls flat on his face, but I also think he will turn things round at Old Trafford. You can't judge anything a third of the way through the season. If a manager (DM) can sign all the quality players listed above on a shoestring, imagine what he can do with a couple of hundred million? That aside I do enjoy our football now and will be chuffed if we make any progress on recent seasons. However, I do not subscribe to the anti-Moyes rude or insulting banter when I consider all the positives above. namely the players we have.
Degsypulford

I thought Moyes and Everton were a good fit for each other. In that I mean mediocrity is ok as long as it looks like your trying. There were a lot of hiding places for Moyes at Everton. no financial clout to keep up with the top four. not really expected to win at the top four.

At Manchester United there is nothing to hide behind, no excuses, and great expectancy and I can't see Moyes living up to it. I thought he did a good job for us but no trophies and not one win at old trafford, Anfield, Stamford bridge, or Arsenal tells you something about his mentality.

Degsy, moyes had every opportunity to exploit the loan market, same as anyone else. He choose to bring in journeymen like Hitzlsperger, Straqualursi, McFadden et al.

Roberto has been more creative and brought in players of the calibre of Barry, Lukaku and Deulofeu. Players moyes probably wouldn't have been able to attract due to his negative brand of football coupled with a negative mindset.

I will agree that the loanees we have this season may have improved our position(s) of yesterday but moyes lacked both the foresight and fortitude to even attempt such signings. Whether they would've played for him is another matter.

Dex

You missed my point though Dex. I am saying look at all the players he did bring in. I can add AJ and The Yak as well. Bar for injuries to these two we would have enjoyed a bit more success than we had. I don't know if you were supporting in the few years prior to Moyes, but things were very poor then. Moyes had slowly built a brilliant squad to which Roberto has added 1 very good permanent player and a three good loans. RM is doing brilliant I agree. I am just saying it is easy to get bitter over the way Moyes left, but we should be above that. Let him get on but wish us more success than him.
Degsypulford

Sorry Degsy lad, I was referring to 'it is apparent to me that the main difference between DM's team and RM's team are two loan signings in the form of Lukaku and Barry' when I compared their respective loan dealings and I appreciate that wasn't your main point.

I've been around and remember Kendall MkI so am aware of the job moyes did in his first few years, and whilst I acknowledge and appreciate the stellar work he put in, I firmly believe he held us back since around the 2009 FA cup final.

In my post above I also give him the due credit he deserved for the mostly excellent signatures he brought to the club.

As for the bitterness since his departure, I believe he's brought it upon himself with his subsequent disrespect, hypocrisy and lies. Having said that I wouldn't feel the need to lay into him but nor would I applaud him. He's made his bed let him lie in it. I couldn't care less whether he succeeds or is an abject failure, it makes no difference to me. RM is the future, so we all should move on and embrace it as I see only better things around the corner.

Dex

I agree with you about how poor we were prior to moyes and he did a good job in steadying the ship, but he was never going to take us on to another level, 11 yrs of never winning a game at the so called big 4 is indefensible for a club of our size and yes he made some good buys but he also made some duds as well, I won't slag him off but you have to realise not all of us thought he was wonderful, I've now got some belief back that we compete again with the big boys not just turn up and make the numbers up.
ste c

Don't forget RM has had a fantastic plattform to work from, built by Moyes. We needed stabilising, made tough, made strong, to turn Goodison into a fortress, to build a good team from little funds. Moyes had done this, and for me few could have done the same. But now, his great work is over, we can now afford to be more ambitious. Martinez has done brilliantly so far and I'm impressed, but he couldn't have done so without Moyes. He has annoyed me as well, but don't forget and underestimate the job that the red rat did for us.

Why couldn't others have done what moyes did? He was given 11 years, free reign, no pressure, had the 7/8th highest wage bill in the league (which is where he finished for the most part) and was paid around £3.5m pa to win nothing?
Sorry, but I think that's rubbish, any manager worth his salt given that time to build a side without any interference could have done similar or better.

But what you are forgetting is the money side of things. Man Utd, Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs and Newcastle have all been bankrolled with vast amounts of money to buy squads. Admittedly Spurs and Newcastle had less than the others, but still a darn sight more than us. Moyes inherited a rubbish aging squad and slowly reduced the age and increased the quality. with next to no money. The squad Roberto inherited was a much better squad. Roberto added 3 or 4 quality signings with some of the Fellani money. Who knows if Moyes would have tried for these players? The one that has made most impact is Lukaku (the others have added too, but his goals and presence is what makes the difference). I am pretty sure all managers in the league were after him. Hats off to Roberto for what he has done, but remember 7 or 8 players that are playing every week were Moyes signings. And remember, if Barry and Lukaku return to their parent clubs at the end of the season or go elsewhere, Roberto has one very difficult job in trying to replace them. He will also have to replace Distin soon and that's when we will see Roberto's own team taking shape.
One last comment, I see Manchester United are in the last 16 of the Champions League (with probably the easiest of draws) and now the semis of the Capital One Cup against Sunderland. They are also only 7 points off a Champions League position. Bearing in mind that they are a team in turmoil, that's not too bad a position to be in. If you must be that interested in them, I suggest you judge them at the end of the season. I suspect they will make one or two signings to improve them in centre midfield. To replace Scholes who is totally being missed. When they do that I suspect they will improve somewhat. It is great being an Evertonian at present but don't turn into gloating Manchester United clones is my way of thinking.
Degsypulford.

19 Dec 2013 13:49:09
I don't actually think we should give all the credit to Moyes for the signings made. We have one of the best scouting networks in the country, Moyes would have had final say but the real heros are the ones who spot the players, watch them, reccomend them and then negotiate a deal for them. The same players under a manager with a different idea has transformed the way we play in such a big way, it can only show Moyes for the negative tactician he his. I think had we had 11 years of Martinez the results would have been better, the football would have been better and the feeling around the club would have been better. Once you take transfer dealings out the equation, Moyes' legacy becomes desperately thin in my opinion.

Nobody is forgetting the money side of things. The financial details are all available in black and white. We had the 7/8th highest wage bill and moyes was allowed to break our transfer record on several occasions - £15m Fellaini, £11m Yakubu, AJ around £10m, Beattie etc.
If Pardew, Allardyce et al are given 11 years in their respective jobs with the luxury of knowing the only requirement is to keep us in the league, I'd suggest they'd be right up in 6/7th after several years.
Moyes actively lowered expectations so we were always seen as 'overachieving'. 'plucky little Everton. The infamous 'let's get to 40 points', 'knives to gunfight' alongside other cringeworthy quotes brainwashed a lot of our supporters into thinking 6th was great for a club like Everton. He was far from the messiah as some like to portray him as.

19 Dec 2013 16:22:35
David Moyes was a safe pair of hands, guiding us through the transition from consistent relegation battlers to euro challengers. He was clever in that he kept expectations relatively low whilst keeping us believing we could do so much more but that it didn't matter if we didn't so long as we stayed in the league. I don't believe moyes was ever an 'Everton' man. Something about his character. He was a very boring man really. Martinez is such contrast. Not only is he much more enthusiastic as a human being he plays 10 times better football and seems to be ridding us of this tag of over achievers. Ask 90% of the young fans of other clubs in this country how many league titles Everton have won, they would prob guess zero, maybe one or two. You certainly wouldn't know we had won as many as we have listening to David Moyes. Our history may as well have been non existent the amount of times he publicly referred to it.

If you want a functional, organised, negative team who play percentage football and not to lose moyes is your man. Reactive manager with the tactical nous of a drunken llama.
If you want an attacking, free flowing football team who play to win, Martinez is your man. Proactive manager, reads the game well and has a plan b, c and d.
Moyes would be more likely to keep you in the league grinding out results, Martinez more likely to win you something or achieve something tangible.

To all the anonymous Moyes hater posts above. That is why we paid Moyes so much and wanted him to sign a new deal? And also why Sir Alex Ferguson picked Moyes to take over is it? At the current number one club? I am so glad you all know more about football than BK, Moyes and Sir Alex F.
Degsypulford

Since you're so fixated on Man U degsy, why don't you pop along the east lancs and support your idol. I'm sure he could use a little more loving at the moment.
Some people don't have the adoration for him you do and that's not a crime by the way, so kindly pick up your toys and put them back in the pram.

Ah but that's where you are wrong my anonymous friend. I just support my club with a passion as strong as anyone else's. I bleed blue blood mate. I just don't like people slagging off any of our club at any time. so I guess I find it hard when others are critical about players, staff, chairman etc present and past. I know Moyes is past. And I know I am happier with Roberto. But I still respect "he who should not be mentioned" for what he did for us. I know he has said a few bad things and tried to sign players on the cheap from us. with the best deal for Utd. That's business. He certainly improved us. I am forever grateful for that. But I hope I will be even more grateful with Roberto. Enough said about him though. I think we should all now enjoy the team with Roberto and get behind them in every way we can.
Degsypulford

17 Dec 2013 11:58:51
Interesting media piece about John Lundstram's loan at Yeovil Town:
Lundstram caught the eye at the end of last season in League One with Doncaster and the England youth international says he is relishing the step up to the second tier.
"It's very fast-paced and a bigger step up than League One was, " he admitted.
"I'm enjoying it and thriving off it really.
"I'm really enjoying my football at the moment and I'm thankful for the opportunity."

His comments about the fast pace and bigger step up from League One to the Championship is very telling in my view.
Many young players look supremely talented at youth level, but playing against physically stronger, quicker (in thought and deed), experienced, and to a degree more cynical (i.e. gamesmanship) older players in really competitive matches where you just don't get the same luxury of time on the ball and where your every mistake can be punished by the opposition is where they're truly tested. The step up to the Premier League (and international) football must be even more demanding. No wonder so many U-18 and U-21 players don't eventually make it at Premier League level, but do have long and successful careers at the lower levels. And no wonder that those players who can deliver at the top level have such high transfer valuations and get such high wages. I wish that Everton had the finances - and the Champions League group stage football - to attract top players that'd strengthen and deepen our squad. In the meantime, I'm hoping that our young talent can develop and progress into first team contenders.

Could John Lundstram be that 4th central midfielder we seem to really need. Barry, McCarthy, Gibson and Osman is all we really have for that position and given Gibson's injuries and Osman's age, its a position we need cover in. Is Lundstram the answer?

I guess the answer to the first replier's question will be nearer to being known as a result of Lundstram's performances with Yeovil Town. If he does as well as Osman - who's played 300 times for the Everton first team after having productive loan spells early on - then we'll have a solid addition to our first team squad.

17 Dec 2013 01:17:09
James McCarthy received a one match suspension for accumulating 5 yellow cards to date this season, but it appears that only 3 were while at Everton. The first 2 must have been while he was still at Wigan Athletic.
Meanwhile, Barkley, Barry and Howard have each received 4 yellow cards. If any of these receives a fifth yellow card before the end of the year - that's three league games - that player will get a one match suspension. While RM had rotated Barkley, I don't think we can afford to be without Barry or Howard. Our only league defeat was against Barry's parent club when he wasn't allowed to play and Howard has made plenty of great stops that have kept us in some matches.
I attribute Barkley's cards to the rashness of youth.
I attribute Howard's to time wasting ;-) during tight matches.
As for Barry and McCarthy, I attribute their cards to the defensive protection they have to provide in the system we play.
The good news is - hopefully not tempting fate here - that we've had no red cards to date.
IMHO, we need to strengthen and deepen our squad so that we could cope on the occasions we're without these first choice players - such as in the event of injuries, suspensions, or just squad rotation.

I believe McCarthy picked up one yellow for Wigan and the other in a Carling Cup match for us.

Dex

Cowpat, although I agree with the post I did make me laugh. Essentially you are saying we need a stronger squad with a bit more depth. To list the reasons why we need a stronger squad with a bit more depth is sort of obvious. If no players ever got tired, suspended or injured you could have just 11 great players!

Svenny: if I ever appeared on "Mastermind" my chosen subject would be "The Bleeding Obvious"!
What would yours be? I can imagine what some other posters might suggest ;-)

Cowpat been watching Fawlty Towers repeats by any chance?