21 Jan 2017 08:55:05
Just having a conversation with ed below got me thinking about last season.
I was one of the many who felt this was our best squad since the 80s and Martinez was ruining it BUT since rk has came in and I listen to him and look closely, maybe we don't have a great squad and need to improve the quality in It, which takes time.
I will give rk the same time Martinez had before judging him.


1.) 21 Jan 2017
21 Jan 2017 09:41:41
I think Martinez made one signing that saved his skin. ie Lukaku. Otherwise the squad deteriorated massively. Look at my response to Ozzie below here I compare players Martinez inherited to players he left behind for Koeman. Howard, Hibbert, Fellaini, etc replaced with Alcaraz, McGeady, Robles, etc Niasse? etc see below.


2.) 21 Jan 2017
21 Jan 2017 11:26:32
I think on paper the squad looked amazing but on grass it looked weak and relied on every player being consistent which they weren't.


3.) 21 Jan 2017
21 Jan 2017 11:53:10
Koeman is getting more out of the same players. Look at Defense 100 times better than last 2 seasons. Is that down to the signing of Stek and Williams? I think not. Koeman is the difference.


4.) 21 Jan 2017
21 Jan 2017 12:11:33
In relation to OzzieBoy's post below imho the last 12 signings listed have elements of good signings. Lukaku is the obvious one who's value has doubled pretty much. Cleverly if he leaves to Watford will get £10m when he was signed for nothing. Not bad business at all.

No question about Eto'o quality, pity it didn't work out. Holgate and Robles very decent buys for £2m! McCarthy imho was a good signing and his value has to of gone up from £13m. Besic, Deulofeu and Lennon signed for £4-5m. Even though they haven't taken off, were they bad business? I think not, Lennon has been ok, done a job on more than one occasion. Talk of £15m for Deulofeu, £10m profit. Besic if he gets over injuries could then show what he can do.

Barry imho is as good a signing as has been done in a long time. Probably the most consistent of ALL players when Martinez was regardless of who signed them. Mori at £9.5m looks like it is good enough business at this stage.

I'm not trying to convert anyone and people have their own views. I'm far from Martinez's biggest fan. Didn't want him at Everton before, during or after his tenure but he done some good.

To use good Moyes signings to bad Martinez signings to draw comparisons is not a true reading. That is skewing the truth to suit your own argument.

That comes from someone that was a big Moyes supporter and as I said never a supporter of Martinez. I try not to see things through tinted glasses and try to be a realist. That's why I can see Martinez done some good signings. Especially with the finance as his disposal.

Imho it was his tactics and all that goes with it that was more of his downfall. The City game had only 1 Koeman signing in it! Williams, people still think the players aren't good enough?

Imho with only one signing in that game and the form we are in lately is more down to Koemans tactics and style which is light years ahead of Martinez. He is on about players are needed. He is right. That is because he is talking about taking us to the very top. The highest level.

Obviously we need plenty of players for that. I have no doubt with time we will get them. Koeman, Walsh and Moshiri are bringing good times to our club.


5.) 21 Jan 2017
21 Jan 2017 13:11:14
Couldn't have said it better myself NBTB, you're spot on there mate.


6.) 21 Jan 2017
21 Jan 2017 17:11:23
Well NBTB. I don't want to make a ping pong arguement. so I will say I agree that Koeman's tactics are part of the improvement. undoubtedly! However Koeman wants rid of Del Boy, Niasse and according to him. a few others. I would say McGeady is one of those? Eto'o lasted about 5 games. Back to Moyes' squad: Jags 4 mill, Baines 4 mill, Seamus 60 grand, etc. won't list and list the differences. But yes I agree that the tactics are a big part. plus telling the players they are not up to it when they are not. Unlike Martinez who probably was the nicest guy ever to win the FA cup and take a team down. Suffice it to say we are winning games again. We are heading upwards and looking upwards. but I am afraid that under Martinez, I was predicting relegation 2 seasons ago and really believe with the players he had and the tactics he chose and the signings he was making, it was a foregone conclusion.


7.) 21 Jan 2017
21 Jan 2017 18:11:53
Was predicting relegation when he became manager. That's why I didn't want him. I was a big supporter of Moyes because of the signings he made. He was a gem. Like any other manager there was flops also. As a whole he dug the club out of the pits when he took over. I stood up for him as much as you on here Degsy.

Of course Koeman wants rid. Players age like Barry and Jags. That's the nature of it. Personally I thought Martinez done a good job signing Holgate and Besic (young players) to replace Barry and Jags.

Plucking good a bad players from what a manager signed is not a proper debate on whether they were good signings or not. As a whole imho Moyes made better signings. I always thought that.

I also think Martinez signings aren't near as bad as some make out. Koeman wants us challenging strong at the top. With his tactics a some good additions we can. Another clean sheet today. The defense is like a totally different defense under Koeman.


8.) 21 Jan 2017
21 Jan 2017 18:22:42
Degsy, you're analysis below lists a very selective set of facts and some slightly dubious ones. I never wanted Martinez and I'm glad he's gone. However, your analysis of the Moyes/ Martinez squads is disingenuous at best. As NBTB says, you've picked the best ever Moyes signings (forgetting Nigel Martyn for a minute) to compare with the full set of those made by Martinez. You've played down the good signings he made for very little outlay (Barry, Holgate and - potentially - Galloway) and ignored Mad Robbie's good points (there were a couple in the first season at least and it wasn't all down to Davie because we did better than we had ever done in terms of points that season! ) Let's not forget that as well as Cahill, Arteta, Baines, Jags and Seamus, Davie signed Richard Wright, Li Tie, James Beattie, Simon Davies, Per Kroldrup, Nuno Valente, Shandy Andy, Bilyaletdinov and Magaye Gueye for a combined fee of nearly £40 million - that must be at least £120 million in today's money. If we're going to count failed signings that cost less than a million, as you seem to want to, we can add another 30-odd players to Moyes' list. In addition to that, he had Eric Dier and Shkodran Mustafi at the club and let them go for nothing - together they're worth £60m plus now. You count Ross as a Moyes player - he barely had a first team game under Moyes! It was Martinez who brought him through (then ruined him, to be fair) . Holgate is class, Robles is coming good, can't blame him for a punt on Eto'o for free, we all thought Geri looked like a steal at £4.3m. There is no excuse for Niasse or McGeady and I was never a fan of Kone myself. Also, do you think we'd have sold Stones for nearly £50m if Moyes had still been in charge? The lad wouldn't have even got into the first team yet for the same reason he never played Ross - he makes too many mistakes. At least the Martinez hype earned us some good money there. Don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to say Bobby was good for us - he wasn't! Neither am I trying to say Moyes was rubbish - I think he did a great job over the years. It's just not as black and white as it's sometimes presented here: both managers made some very good signings and signed some duds. The point now is we have one of the best Directors of Football in the business, an owner with money and a plan, and a manager who seems to have got the team fitter and more resolute. There are some real plus points - some remaining from the Moyes era, some were Martinez' doing (I know it hurts) and some are being added now.


9.) 21 Jan 2017
21 Jan 2017 18:34:46
Agree coby. From 'don't get me wrong' down in that post I could of wrote that myself. As you say, as a whole Martinez wasn't good for the club. As a whole Moyes was. At the same time not everything Moyes done was right and not everything Martinez done was wrong.


10.) 21 Jan 2017
21 Jan 2017 18:57:36
I agree with a lot of what you say coyb. the only thing I really dissagree with is that I chose the best of Moyes players and used them. actually I just looked up the 2013/ 4 squad and compared it with the squad prior to Koeman. So the player examples were what Martinez inherited. Yes Moyes made some bad signings. Yes Martinez made some potentially good young signings. But I couldping pong this back and say they are not first team regulars and we could goon and on. how about we forget this one and enjoy today's win. Another ground out using tactics that Martinez would never have used. that much me and NBTB agree on 100%. My main point on the Martinez debate was that when Koeman took over, he should have had a squad with mainly Martinez signings making the 1st team. He did not. He had a few Martinez signings and more ageing Moyes ones. But let's enjoy the positives hey? let's enjoy that Koeman is signing some younger players now and ones to replace the ageing ones. and giving Martinez youngsters a chance and most of all. we are winning football matches! COYB and coyNBTB


11.) 22 Jan 2017
22 Jan 2017 08:49:08
Agree on that Degs! Whatever has gone on in recent years, it's what we're building for the future that matters and it's been a while since it felt this good to support Everton.